Far beyond the edge of civilization, there's a land that's strange. Maybe you heard it's where barbarians roam the hills in cunning packs, where goblins steal babies and leave behind twig-constructs, where witches grant power at the price of your dreams, leaving only nightmares. There are people out here, cities too, yes- but they're like nothing you've never known. But something has drawn you here nonetheless, to this wild and untamed land, to The West Marches.
So lately I've been thinking about what it would be like if I made a game based on The West Marches now, today, as opposed to what I would have made years ago.
I think I would want it to be something you could play quickly- a full session within 2-4 hours. Adventuring out into the unknown, discovering vivid, ecstatic images, engaging with them, changing them or being affected by their consequences, and then returning to safety. I would want character creation to be quick and light, focused on creating the most interesting aspects of your character, and then discovering what those things tell you.
What about the experience of playing that game? From memory, the most important things about the West Marches were things like...
- Shaldrick the dwarf lost his brother to a rampaging owlbear, and after that his mood turned dark. He took to carrying his brother's remains about in a sack, speaking with them.
- Juliette the half-orc agreed to a witch's bargain, drinking a potion and dreaming of the Wounded Wretch, and awoke pregnant with the first-born-child the witch was demanding as payment for services rendered.
- Galahan the knight discovered three great serpents sleeping beneath three great hot springs, and, with his companions, awoke them. As reward, he successfully negotiated the gift of a Serpent's Tooth, a mighty lance he carried with him onward.
- Kellan the human investigated the vaults beneath the scrivener's tower without caution, compelled by a wicked crib to murder the child within it, and then cursed to age backwards until he was fit to occupy the crib himself.
- Shialbaz the dragonborn was resurrected from a pact made with the Serpent of Death, requiring the party to feed the ascendant in the Ziggurat to the Serpent in order to complete the compact.
And then, on the DM's side:
- The West Marches was a place I discovered too- not because I was creating it, not because my players were creating it- but because a process of divination-through-dice-and-rules was creating it.
Basically: vibrant characters engage with the strange wilds, and change them or are changed by them. These changes become new sources of strength and identity, motivating our adventurers to move deeper into the Marches, discovering unknown surprises, and learning about themselves.
If we got rid of Dungeons and Dragons entirely as a framework for that experience... what would it look like?
Here's some braindump stuff I'm fiddling with in my head.
Far beyond the edge of civilization, there's a land that's strange. Maybe you heard it's where barbarians roam the hills in cunning packs, where goblins steal babies and leave behind twig-constructs, where witches grant power at the price of your dreams, leaving only nightmares. There are people out here, cities too, yes- but they're like nothing you've never known. But something has drawn you here nonetheless, to this wild and untamed land.
In this context, what are the MOST IMPORTANT THINGS about your character? I actually don't think Strdexcon Intwischa is the best way to describe who you are in that setting. What is?
- Are you a Human? Elf? Dwarf?
- What is your strength? Are you Strong? Quick? Clever?
- What are your capabilities? Do you Have Magic? Are you Skilled with the Sword?
- What have you brought with you? Your Mother's Sword? A Talisman of Faith?
- Why are you here? Do you seek A Cure? Your Brother? Gold? Glory?
What if answering those questions was ALL YOU NEEDED to start playing? What would that game look like?
I've got some other thoughts on tiers of play, which I might expand on in the future:
- Mortal - emulates old school D&D. You've got 4hp and can be ended by a goblin's rusty dagger.
- Hero - emulates higher fantasy heroics. You're a strongly archetyped hero who's much harder to take down.
- Domain - emulates high tier play. You run a Thieves' Guild, or a Parish; a Wizard's Seclusium, or a Knightly Order.
- God - emulates the highest tier of play. You're beholden to and battling strange esoteric forces of nature, in ways that are entirely unique to you because of the ways your journey through the wilds has shaped you into the creature you are now.
In the comments (or tweet @ me)- In this context, what do YOU see as the most important, core, defining aspects of your adventurer?
- What are you?
- How are you strong?
- What are your special skills?
- What have you brought with you?
- Why have you left your home to come out here, to the edge of the known world, and throw yourself into the strange wilds beyond?
I'll post here what I put on twitter!
ReplyDeletename's Edward, I'm human with a strong will and good reflex, I specialize on duelist combat (counter-parry)
I have with me my family's curse: a sword that will posses the weak minded. I came to this place because
my sword it's dangerous I want it far from my family, and wield it while I can.
I think why you're there is possibly the most important question in any roleplaying game overall. It gives definition not only to the space you occupy but the purpose of that space.
ReplyDelete"I'm here because I seek to resurrect my master." gives SO much to the world and the character. There is a master, of what? Should they be revived at all? The lands supposedly contain the means to resurrect them, do they really? What would be the price of this? Are others seeking the same thing? Can the act be committed more than once if more seek the means?
It shows what the character is searching for in the game as well, which while WM games shouldn't necessarily be about just one goal it at least informs the GM of things they should consider about the lands when the PCs are out there looking for things.
- A witch that knows the means of resurrection.
- A place to perform the rite.
- The cost of the rite existing in some capacity in the lands (if it is physical for that matter).
Yes! It expands so many things, both about the character and about the world.
DeleteBut I also know that people love thinking about their characters- their personalities, their wants and needs, their histories. Those things seem to define more to players than stats do! So what if we just focused on those things as a part of the character, both descriptively and mechanically??
Thanks for your reply!
I had to think of "I am an adjective noun who verbs" immediately and the way games like Minimald6 and other light fare handle aspects/ traits and the like. Where the numerical value itself does not matter, they often even have none, but that it exists and is written down at all.
DeleteI am Rohgrimar, a dwarf with a grim determination and unbelievable endurance. With my hammer and shield I unwaveringly protect my clan, friends and myself. I have with me the shield of shame I must carry for letting a claim fall to the goblins and surviving. I am here to find and free a claim of legend from the monsters that occupy it, reclaiming it for my clan so I can burn the shield of shame.
ReplyDeleteP.S. Love the idea! Looking forward to what you do with this.
I remember answering something a bit similar in an old WM thread.
ReplyDeleteHow I would love to start a character.
Charismatic Human, Skilled with a lance, bringing with him a locket with her mother's image inside, defaced.
Looking for his true Mother guided by nightmares where he sees this figure now also holding a female orc infant.
If possible I would try to have the spells and perks of my class be gross mutations to my character too, being a Warrior for example I would like to have Second Wind be a enormous leech that slowly feeds on my shoulder and neck that when realizing that it's host is in danger would vomit some of the blood out that when mixed with his saliva would give my character a boost. In the end if the character was to die this leech would try to find a new host, that is whoever happens to be closest.
Taking also into account how you don't usually like how XP is given in 5E I would love to gain levels by interacting with Weird stuff around the world, like eating the heart of a black dragon or the glass eye of a witch, which would then bestow new gifts to my character.
Your XP thoughts are on the perfect track :)
DeleteAn elderly human with a tattered grey beard, white hair allowed to grow unkempt covering his face and his piercing green eyes. He wears a dirty plain cloak in order to hide his armour, and carries a large swaddled greatsword on his back. He walks almost hunched over and looks like an old sellsword long past his use by date.
ReplyDeleteIn reality he is a veteran Paladin who has seen much of war. He has become jaded and cynical of the world, believing that all he fought for may have been a lie.
He tries to rely on his wits to get by, but his new found love of brandy has dulled them considerably. When forced to fight he appears to grow two feet in stature and looks a match for any warrior in strength. Bards once wrote songs about a Paladin with golden locks who wielded an Emerald Dawn that would cut down foes like grass. But that was a long time ago.
Below his cloak, the armour carries a royal seal on its breastplate, but it has faded and has been scratched at as if to try remove it. His greatsword shimmers when it is unsheathed, and has two runes at the base of the blade - these are the last two tokens of his former life. He tells himself he's kept them only for their usefulness.
He's come to the edge of the world to escape his oath, to drink, and to try and forget.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteEssentially a play along got birthed less than deliberately what with me having A LOT of time to consider the detail as I watched. Your post here brings home just how conceptual these play alongs are/were as they are unencumbered by the necessity of rules since they aren't directly part of the game. As I continued watching I resolved not to intentionally make new guys as it takes work. Whatever muse that governs my thoughts had other plans. So here I present my play along for the West Marches.
DeleteA tiefling wizard named Kovaas. He wears an unadorned and quite severe set of black robes that are alchemically treated to resist the rigors of the road. His hair is long and unkempt though that is belied by it's blood red luster. His complexion is an unwholesome white pretty close to the hue of a maggot. His finger nails are long and pointed and seem to be manicured in a most Machevellian manner (ironically natural; he doesn't take special care with them anymore than he does his hair). His eyes are uniformly yellow with a very faint glow. Elegant horns and the splade tail (often concealed by the robes) are present as well.
He is of True Neutral alignment (I've always favoured this as a seed much like race and class to build a character's demeanor around). He's blunt and outspoken with a well develop disgust for prejudice and racial injustice. He seeks secrets and power (with a marked interest in the elven sleep trance known as reverie) while harbouring a distrust for the church and nobility (frequent sources of derision to him). Values people of high intellect and mistrusts warlocks, doubly so if they are tieflings who he feels should know better (me railing against common stereotypical race/class combinations there). Feels magic and power ought to be used responsibly and that most gods have failed in that regard.
Abandoned by his parents as an infant so he can be insecure. They were both human so the manifestation of his heritage (he's descended from the Tanr'ri specifically the Balor; he guards this secret most zealously but his most common deflection is that it is hard to know which fiend a tiefling might be related to) was quite a shock to them. They sought out his Master, Albrecht (a subliminal reflection of Cohh's S'Ilid I suspect; this was my original choice of name for the character), to remove the condition. When they were informed that it was impossible they abandoned him then and there. Albrecht raised Kovaas as his own in the tradition of a Lore Master.
Kovaas had several mechanically free broken elements frequently casting just about any spell as a regular character would a cantrip. Sometimes even boosted as higher slot levels would. Originally I had intended to pull whatever effect I felt was needed out of thin air (or whole cloth as it were) but started to pull in the actual wizard spells for flavour. On a few occasions he even violated the concentration rules (near the end several items were cobbled into a talisman that allowed him to make them autonomic but taxing). By the end of it all he learns that his advanced abilities are due to Bardic's tampering with Hextia's clock (which left traces on the Talisman), the transfiguration of The Wounded Wretch, and the birthing featured in the final arc creating essentially the perfect storm resonating all the way back to his birth. It's likely even the cause of the resurgence of his demonic bloodline.
This may seem a little weird as I've change my mind about something that was very Darkest Dungeon inspired. However I used to do this thing I'll refer to as a play along character when I read books, watched television, etc. It has developed since then dovetailing with other ideas that I've ruminated on. Also with technical issues here (I internet through a PS4) my names not on the original post.
DeleteStrange background here as I've watched Rollplay on and off again and recently returned to devour all the content Steven has had a hand in. So I've actually just recently finished watching the West Marches. I had started with a nominal character in Swan Song to snark at JP's character as he often plays these low intellect characters who, and I don't know if he's aware of the irony, tend to belittle the intellect of characters around him who are actually smarter.
I didn't like the Juliette magical baby arc at all. It seemed inappropriate or nasty to the players without being especially interesting. Of course I don't know what feedback you received from them directly.
ReplyDeleteThese days I would probably approach it more carefully than I did! I remember the players enjoying it greatly though, which I hope was true.
DeleteWell the enjoyment due to being a show went even farther than that! You can never please everybody with the subjectivity of tastes. The only unfortunate thing I find (as I drift off topic) was the sudden end resulting in those loose ends. Granted I took a very different view of the Shaldrick-Maldrick interaction than others considering the communication succeeded the Ritual in the Barrows. Thus a bound spirit and not a delusion. So I guess I created a loose end for myself.
DeleteI am Paavu "Tree" Ugunolake, a goliath barbarian. I left my tribe mainly for bragging rights for having ventured the farthest, but also to leave my mark on a new land. Since arriving, I've made the Legion of Arethis my new tribe and its founding member, a gruff paladin, the chieftain. Together we're working on building up the colony and taming the wilds.
ReplyDeleteMy size and strength have been my main quality. Helping haul resources, treasure, and even other players. It's currently winter so being mountain born has been helpful in exploring during below freezing temperatures. I've even been used to help block the wind for other members!
I only brought a greataxe that I intend to use on anything that gets in my way, be it owlbear or tree. Since arriving though, I've taken to wearing the pelt of a warg I killed as well as a barrel as a backpack to help haul meats and halflings.
Hi Steven,
ReplyDeleteI'm a fan of your style of GMing and your ever positive and engaging attitude at the "table". Respect!
I have some thoughts regarding this comment you made: "If we got rid of Dungeons and Dragons entirely as a framework for that experience."
I watched all of West Marches on RollPlay including prep and HackAttack. I'm a GM myself, and my next campaign will be in a West Marches setup. I'm wondering if it was entirely up to you today, what RPG system would you use, if you had to make a new West Marches campaign?
From my impression the setting on West Marches in general is designed for what you call "Mortal characters". You also had many discussion with Adam Koebel that D&D mechanically didn't really promote the style of play you wanted to encourage from players nor the setting of a West Marches. I also remember your enthusiasm with e.g. Passions from Pendragon.
For my future West Marches campaign I personally have set my eyes on a system called Mythras. It was recommended to me on Reddit recently, when I asked for a system that would support what I wanted. Some of my requirements:
- Easy to learn
- Non-boring or trivial combat system. Combat should feel gritty and deadly, rather than as a sport.
- Specialized character progression system (including a big variety of spells and items).
- Have mechanics that promotes role play among players.
- A system in which a seasoned character could play with a new character without it being a jarring experience.
- A system supported by Roll20.
As I'm reading this rule book, I so often get the feeling that this Mythras system would also have been a much better for fit for the West Marches campaign on Itmejp's channel than D&D5E. I'm wondering if you have any knowledge of the Mythras system? If not, I think you should give it a look.
Mythras has an inherent character generation system asking pretty much all the same questions you are asking here as a natural part of character creation. It has passions much like Pendragon. It has cultures or cults, which are kind of like factions for both PCs and NPCs. It has Luck points kind of like fate points of Burning Wheel. It doesn't have xp, level and extra hitpoints per level - while progression matters a swarm of goblins will always be able to kill you. You can reuse a ton of D&D content with very little effort. It even have separate modules for various settings (for example: classic fantasy, bronze age, prehistoric and futuristic) if that is what you want. The rules are not intertwined, so you can include the rules you want and forget about the rest.